Sean: Welcome to Earshifter. He's Rene Rouleau 

Rene: And he's Sean Capstick. And Sean, why are we doing this? 

Sean: Because we like talking about bands that we really enjoy, and we hope the listeners will either find a new band that they don't know already, or if they like the band, then they'll learn more about the band or maybe learn a little bit more about the history around the band.

Rene: Ooh, nice segue. All right, yeah, so speaking of which, so today's gonna be a little bit different, right? So normally we sometimes do a deep dive on a certain band. If they don't have too many albums, we can go deeper, but if they have a ton of albums, like say Sparks- 

Sean: Yeah ... 

Rene: then, then we do a kind of a light [00:01:00] touch, and maybe those hardcore fans are like, "Okay, I learned a couple of things, but I knew everything else," or, or something like that, right?

But in this case, we are actually gonna be doing a light touch on the band and kind of an intro Shoegaze 101 on the genre of shoegazing, 'cause we are going to be talking about My Bloody Valentine. 

Sean: Indeed. 

Rene: Indeed. So before we actually even get into My Bloody Valentine and that kind of, intro to the band, but not too heavy let's talk about, like, why are we even talking about them?

Well, let's start with what were their influences, and then we're gonna talk about how they influenced other bands. So in terms of what- 

Sean: I think we're talking about them because they are a prototypical Rene band. I just have to start out by saying that. They have a mystique. They are kind of obtuse. Long periods of inactivity, and very highly acclaimed.

Rene: And also not... [00:02:00] We'll, we'll talk about this more. Also, you know, not lyric focused, right? Like, more about the feels, so- A lot of 

Sean: feels 

Rene: in this music ... a lot of feels in this music. Uh- Yep. 

Sean: Get ready. 

Rene: Yeah, get ready. And, and you know, we will talk about lyrics and what that means later, but, uh, let's just talk about- Who influenced them?

How did they get to where they got to? So do you have any thoughts about what bands influenced their music first? 

Sean: Well, the feedback certainly is great. They really enjoy feedback, and there's been so many bands that we like that have a lot of feedback, so. 

Rene: Such as? 

Sean: Who have we done on the show?

Jesus and the Merky Rain. 

Rene: I mean, we haven't done them on the show, but- Yeah ... we sure as hell love them, right? Yes. Like, we've seen them twice, and we promised the first time we wouldn't see them the second time- ... and we did. Yes, 

Sean: and we did. We forgave them. Yeah. Forgiveness is a- Yeah ... very good thing. 

Rene: Yeah.

Longer story, but basically they were kinda jerks, uh, on stage, and they actually assaulted somebody in the, uh, [00:03:00] fandom, so to speak, and they actually had to come back because they were charged. They had to come back for a court trial. Yeah ... but 

Sean: yeah. And, and 30 years later they're still jerks, but they didn't have enough energy to- To, to move- Too old Yeah, to do any assaults, so anyway.

But anyway- we do love the music ... 

Rene: we actually do love the music very much. Also My Bloody Valentine was influenced by The Birthday Party. 

Sean: Mm-hmm. 

Rene: The Cramps, which I know we've seen together- Yeah ... The Cramps. Also influenced by, uh, a little band called Dinosaur Jr. Have you heard of them?

Sean: I've heard of them, yes. Yeah, bec- Is 

Rene: that because we just did them a couple episodes ago? Yep . Maybe, yeah. 

Sean: Yeah, another great guitar band, that's for sure. 

Rene: Exactly. Sonic Youth as well, and, uh, a band I think you like more than I do Husker Du. 

Sean: Okay, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense, although they are not very speedy- Yeah

to start with. Yeah, I mean, the, the Husker Du was a very fast band when- Yeah ... they first started. Y- 

Rene: you raise a great point, because this is the earlier stuff, and we're gonna get into, My Bloody Valentine [00:04:00] basically had two eras. They had the pre-shoegaze era and the shoegaze era. So they were more of an influence on the pre-shoegaze era, and you're gonna hear what that l- sounds like on their, one of their first EPs.

So you're absolutely right. But also interestingly for me anyway Public Image Limited the song Public Image Kevin Shields, who's kind of the main guy of- Mm-hmm ... My Bloody Valentine, he said that was a major influence on them, too, on their sound. Which probably was, mm, largely Jaw Wobble, I think, probably, uh- Mm

was responsible for that sound. Um- Yeah, 

Sean: or Levine was the guitarist. I mean, Levine was a good guitarist. 

Rene: Oh, Levine was a good- Yeah ... you know what? I stand corrected, yeah. Levine was a good guitarist, too. Uh, but probably the combo. And then interestingly for me as well was, The founder of Creation Records, which you're gonna talk about- Yep

a little bit his name is Alan McGee. 

Sean: Yes. 

Rene: And Alan McGee w- and we will get into this, but [00:05:00] when Creation Records kind of, like, almost went bankrupt, he started a new recording company called Poptones, and he said he called it that because on the P.I.L. Second Edition album, it's a double album, there's a song called Poptones, and that's why he called it...

And honestly, dude, that album is... Have you ever heard that album? 

Sean: I find it very difficult to listen to. Very difficult. And yeah, and I know that's probably an investment that I should make, but the first album and then Rise, yeah the poppy public image. Wow. Yeah. Look 

Rene: at you. Okay. Yeah.

All right. Yeah, I, Second Edition I really grew to love. It is difficult listening for sure, but wow, really different. So I thought that was pretty cool that he called it Poptones. Uh, there's two more influences. So one is he talks about dance music and hip hop being an influence on My Bloody Valentine.

Specifically, he cites Public Enemy and a band I actually don't know, called The Bomb Squad. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, [00:06:00] 

Sean: drawing a blank. Well, The Bomb Squad was they were the producers of Public Enemy. Oh. So yeah. Oh, I 

Rene: see. 

Sean: So Public Enemy, Chuck D, Flavor Flav, all of the guys, Terminator X, The Bomb Squad were their producers.

Okay. So they invented that- 

Rene: Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah 

Sean: Yeah. And, uh- That makes sense ... yeah, and made a really good, ... That'd be those first Public Enemy albums were so amazing. 

Rene: Amazing. Yeah. And we saw them live too. Yeah. And then more direct influences, Cocteau Twins- 

... 

Rene: And, uh, and Jesus And Mary Chain, both Scottish bands, weirdly.

Yeah. And Jesus And Mary Chain w- were actually under the Creation Records label as well- 

... 

Rene: For a short period. 

Sean: Yep, that's true. And let's get back to the Cocteau Twins if you start talking about lyrics at some point. Okay. 'Cause I wanna know how you really feel about the Cocteau Twins, but let's save that.

Rene: Okay. All right. Well, lots to talk about. Okay, so that's their influence. Now, a much longer list, let's talk about who they've inspired or influenced. So do you wanna [00:07:00] start? 

Sean: I think every shoegaze band- ... in the world. I think they, these guys are like that butterfly wing that, uh, uh- Oh, Smashing Pumpkins

that creates everything, yes. Yeah, 

Rene: yeah, yeah. Oh, is that what you meant, or no? 

Sean: I'm just seeing if you'd pick up 

Rene: on it. Ah, nice, nice. Okay, yeah. So in terms of, um, more broader popular bands, we got Nine Inch Nails, we got Smashing Pumpkins. We actually have U2 as well. The Edge was inspired by My Bloody Valentine- Mm, okay

as well. But in terms of the actual pure shoegaze influence we have Ride, we have Swerve Driver, uh- 

Sean: Love Swerve Driver. 

Rene: Yeah, I love Swerve Driver too, dude. I didn't know that. Okay, yeah. Curve. 

Sean: Swe- Ride is, is 35 years old- Ride ... which is crazy. You mean Ride? Uh, Ride, yeah. Yeah. It's 35 years old. That's crazy.

Rene: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, so we got Swer- Swerve Driver, Catherine Wheel, M83, who I actually am a big fan Mercury Rev. Then you've got, like, a little further removed from shoegaze [00:08:00] purity Deftones- Blonde Redhead, Sean Oh, yeah You know, Blonde Redhead Mm-hmm Keep coming up. Silversun Pickups. 

Sean: Yep 

Rene: The Radio Dept, which I'm a fan of.

School of Seven Bells, which is an outlier for me, but I'm a fan of them as well. Trail of the Dead, Sean. Nice. Keep coming up, man. 

Sean: Whatever happened to 

Rene: them? Whatever happened to them? I mean, I think they're still doing stuff. I don't know. Uh, The Twilight Sad. Remember them? 

Sean: No. 

Rene: No way, okay. The No Twist?

Sean: Yes- 

Rene: Yeah, a little bit ... but 

Sean: very vaguely. Yeah. 

Rene: Yeah. American Football, which I never really got into. Oh, 

Sean: I like American Football. 

Rene: Okay, there you go. Yeah. 

Sean: Mogwai. Yeah, that's much more contemporary. W- uh, Mogwai, yeah, did, they forgot their bikes the time we saw them. It was, yeah, they had a really strange set.

Yeah. 

Rene: Pretty awesome. Uh, Windy & Carl, which is pure ambient music, basically, which I love, and Deerhunter, who we also saw. Mm-hmm. So quite a few on that list- Yeah ... we've actually seen. So let's get into the origin of the band. We're not gonna go too deep. We're just gonna talk about kinda how they met, and then we'll go from there.

So Kevin [00:09:00] Shields, the main guy was at a karate tournament, and he met the drummer who's Colm Ó Cíosóg, and he ends up being the drummer. So that's in 1978 in South Dublin. And, uh, they became fast friends and formed My Bloody Valentine in 1983. Now, a little fun fact, how did they get that name?

Ask me how they got that name. 

Sean: How did they get the name, Rene? 

Rene: Well, Sean, I'll tell you. They actually were, uh, rehearsing, and they were taking a break in, uh, Kevin's parents' basement, and they had a VHS tape. And the trailer before the actual movie was My Bloody Valentine, which is a Canadian horror movie.

And they kinda thought, "That's a cool name. Why don't we go with that?" 

Sean: And did you research that as part of your research? 

Rene: I did not. Did you? 

Sean: I wanted to see if it was David Cronenberg. 

Rene: Oh. 

Sean: And it's not. I don't- it's not. Yeah. 'Cause that would be pretty cool. That'd be wicked cool. David Cro- David Cronenberg did a lot of very good violent movies- He did.

[00:10:00] He did ... in the late '70s, early '80s. Yes. So. 

Rene: Yes. He is pretty awesome. 

Sean: Yeah. But it is set in Sudbury 

Rene: Yeah. Nice '

Sean: Cause it's a mining slasher film- Yeah ... My Bloody Valentine. 

Rene: Yeah. 

Sean: So. 

Rene: Folks, for those that don't know Sudbury is like n- if you think Canada's north, Sudbury's even more north. It's way up there, very remote.

Okay, so now, like I said, we're jumping. So we went from '83 when they were formed to '88. So now we're in '88. And at that point we have our full band lineup. They've gone through a bunch of changes, but this is the band lineup. So it's Kevin Shields main guy, vocals, guitar. We got Colm on drums, who I've already mentioned.

We got Debbie Googe who's the bassist, and Belinda Butcher, who does vocals and guitar. And they actually sign with Creation Records, which we've talked about already, in 1988 as well. And the band released several EPs and two albums. One album is [00:11:00] called Isn't Anything in 1988, and the other one, which we'll talk about quite a bit, is Loveless in 1991.

Sean: Right. 

Rene: So basically, what I was hinting at before is there are two eras of My Bloody Valentine. There's the pre kind of transition My Bloody Valentine, and then there's the shoegaze My Bloody Valentine, which starts with Loveless. But we're gonna, we're gonna actually listen to the pre just for interest's sake.

And we're gonna actually focus on the EP, which I never do, but I actually- ... did like this EP. Uh, I thought it was pretty cool. Um, and the EP is called You Made Me Realize. And so- On this album, I felt like they sounded a bit more like a noisier Jesus and Mary Chain. The beats are a little bit faster.

So the pre My Bloody Valentine the guitars are a little bit more raw angle grinding, kind of a fuzz. You got the aggressive riffs versus the [00:12:00] floaty riffs. Your vocals are actually way more upfront than the shoegaze My Bloody Valentine. Way more upfront, clearer, faster again. 

Sean: Yep.

And is this Kevin singing at this point, or this, this is before he took over the s- the full vocal duties? 

Rene: I think predominantly it's Kevin singing. I think on Isn't Anything it's kinda mixed, much like Loveless where it's almost half and half. But I think he is leaning in a little bit more. The drums, again, high energy, almost punk-like.

And the vibe overall is just a little bit more violent, almost chaotic, and just fast, or faster. And that's not guys, don't come at me. Like, I know Isn't Anything has a lot of slow ones too, but overall it's just faster and and the vocals are way more upfront, which you'd think would be more interesting, but I actually...

Well, we'll get into it, but I think actually Loveless is way more unique. But having said all of that, let's listen to a song clip from You Made Me [00:13:00] Realize. Let's listen to the title track. 

Sean: Okay.

So I was not a fan at this point in My Bloody Valentine's career. I, [00:14:00] I- they were not on my radar. The comparisons to The Birthday Party, who I was a fan of at that time, they are they're a little bit softer. They are not as hard, and the vocals don't hit as hard as Nick Cave's vocals. They were a little less aggressive.

But the syncopation the aggressive drumming, yes- Yeah, the drumming's pretty cool ... that's, that is, that, that is of that time. Yeah. That is of that time. But I was pretty devoted to that one band, so I didn't- I bet ... have room for Yeah. I didn't have room for others. 

Rene: Yeah, yeah. Listeners, if you don't know already Sean's a pretty big Nick Cave fan, so yeah.

And that's the origin of Nick Cave- Yeah ... basically, so yeah. So that, that's pretty good praise actually- Mm-hmm ... um, for that EP. And that, the success of that EP, it actually did all right. And on the heels of that, they released their full-length studio album, Isn't Anything. And Isn't Anything was [00:15:00] considered a major success in in Great Britain, not North America.

No. You know, unheard of. But it peaked at number one on the UK Indie charts, which is, kind of impressive. And interestingly, actually this was from Pitchfork. In 2002, Pitchfork did a Top 100 Albums of the '80s, and Isn't Anything hit 22. But again, for me- 

Sean: And that was because the next one was in the '90s.

Rene: That's right. Yeah. Exactly. But a little surprising. And, you know- Again, didn't do much over in North America. But even Loveless didn't do huge over here either, right? No. But, and we will talk about that more. But Isn't Anything didn't really, guys, don't come at me, but, like, it didn't hit me.

I thought about this, and I thought I think Isn't An- They're literally in transition, so they're no longer this punky band, but they're not yet the My Bloody Valentine that we all love. So they're just figuring shit out, and as a result, I kinda just didn't r- it [00:16:00] didn't really grab me. The vocals are being pulled back a little bit, but they're still pretty up front and it starts to, it just didn't really make it interesting for me, basically.

How, what about you? Did you have a chance to listen to it or not so 

Sean: much? Yeah, I, I listened to it again, and you can tell that the band is very creative. The songs are different. There's a lot of interesting ideas in the songs. And although, again, I was not a fan back at the time- Me neither

re-listening to it, it was like, wow, yeah, these guys are interesting. They definitely had potential. They, you could hear the creativity that is about to come. 

Rene: Yeah, exact- perfect. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, so in 1989 My Bloody Valentine re- started recording their second studio album, which is Loveless, which is their, basically m- m- mag- what is it?

Magma Opus? Magma Opus. Yeah. 

Sean: Yes. 

Rene: It's basically that. But this album took two years to make Went through 19 [00:17:00] studios- Mm-hmm ... which is unheard of. Most bands, one, maybe two studios, right? Like- 

Sean: Yeah if they're lucky. 

Rene: If they're lucky. So 19 studios. 

Sean: Live off the floor. Exactly. Release it just release it from the sound man's cassette.

Yeah. You know? 

Rene: Exactly. Or car seat headrest- Yeah ... in your car. 

Sean: Yeah. 

Rene: The band, took a long time to record this. They actually went through several engineers, but the one engineer I kinda wanna highlight is Alan Moulder. Do you remember, or do you know the name Alan Moulder? 

Sean: No. 

Rene: Okay, Alan Moulder actually did The K- has done The Killers.

Hmm. Alan Moulder has done Death Cab for Cutie, Foo Fighters, Nine Inch Nails and actually married, now I don't think either of us are a fan of Curve specifically, but married one of the members of Curve. 

Sean: Yeah, they, they, I think they, they were- 

Rene: They were all 

Sean: right ... they were all right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, they were of the time. Yeah, they were definitely part of that whole scene- Exactly ... that that My Bloody Valentine created. 

Rene: That's exactly right. And, uh, [00:18:00] sorry, Alan Moulder also worked with Beach House, which is one of my- Mm-hmm ... all-time favorite bands, and a little band called The Joy Formidable.

Sean: Ah, interesting. 

Rene: Way back- Way back ... episode three, season one. Also Swerve Driver, which we both like- Okay ... and Interpol, which I think- Yeah ... we both like. Mm-hmm. Okay. So Loveless, finally released in 1991. Rumored to have cost more than £250,000, which in today's dollars is about a half million pounds, which in, I don't know, Canadian-American dollars is, like, a million dollars, basically.

Something like that. 

Sean: Mm, I think you're inflating it- ... but yes, yes. Let's dramatize it. A sizable sta- sum of money. 

Rene: Yeah, and basically bankrupted Creation Records. Both of these claims- Which 

Sean: I don't think is true. Yeah. Kevin can deny it. Okay. But let's come back to Creation Records a little bit more.

Okay. Okay, you keep going. 

Rene: Okay. All right. Okay, so album obviously got major acclaim, but again, the album doesn't really get commercial success at the time. [00:19:00] It peaked at number 24 on the UK album charts, and, basically is nowhere to be seen in the North America. 

Sean: Yeah, which was a problem for Creation Records if, that they'd invested all this money at the time, yes.

Rene: Yeah. So, uh, this album basically defined shoegaze. Shoegaze, ethereal wall of sound. It feels more immersive, like a sonic experience. My Bloody Valentine is truly connected, started that whole genre, basically. And we'll talk about what shoegaze means, actually, and why they actually call it shoegaze.

But for me, honestly, Sean- This is gonna sound weird, man, but this, some of these songs in particular hit me, and I feel it in the back of my teeth. And I don't know- ... how to explain that- Okay ... or what that means, but that's where I feel it. And the other thing, and maybe, if you're a first time listener, maybe you'll feel the same thing, but you know those funny wire head massage things that you can put on your scalp that kinda tickle your [00:20:00] scalp?

Sean: Not really. 

Rene: No. 

Sean: Okay, all- You're, you're, I wish we did have some video that, 'cause- Yeah ... Rene was demonstrating it really well. Yeah. But no, no. 

Rene: Not only that, I, I forgot my prop. I was gonna show you what it is. But it actually creates this tingly in your head, and that is what this music does for me as well.

One last thing, 1991 UK charts. What the hell is going on? And also you set US charts by default. Here are our hits for 1991. It's In His Kiss by Cher. 

Sean: I'm glad she was still kicking. 

Rene: Do the Bart Man by Bart Simpson. 

Sean: Okay. That's a, that's, 

Rene: uh- I swear to God. Uh, Should I Stay or Should I Go by The Clash.

Yeah. Um, you know? That's okay. And Everything I Do, I Do for You, Bryan Adams. Hmm. So that's where we are, listeners, 1991. 

Sean: Not even the s- the Summer of '69? 

Rene: Not even the Summer of '69, which is a better song. Yeah. I would agree. So listeners, put yourself back there, and then imagine the opening track to [00:21:00] Loveless comes on[00:22:00] 

So let's talk a little bit more about that sound and Kevin Shields' signature, what they call glide guitar technique. So Kevin relies heavily on using the tremolo bar, which is sometimes called the whammy bar. So I 

Sean: think- I prefer it called the whammy bar. 

Rene: I like it called the whammy bar as well. I think, for our listeners, uh, probably the most famous use of the whammy bar could be Jimi Hendrix- Mm-hmm

or even Jimmy Page. They definitely use that thing, and it's the thing that kinda sticks out of the bridge of a guitar. It's a little stick almost. Uh, but the difference is Jimi Hendrix and predecessors like that only used it to kind of [00:23:00] accentuate certain moments, and the difference is Kevin Shields said, "No, I'm gonna use it all the time.

So while I'm strumming, I'm gonna hang on to that whammy bar, and it's gonna, I'm gonna hold that and strum at the same time," and that creates or helps create the warbling effect that you actually hear on the songs. But it's not that simple 'cause he additionally uses a combination of fuzz and reverse reverb pedals.

So he's manipulating that tremolo bar strumming, holding onto it, and he's also hitting these guitar pedals. And I'm like, "Yeah, I see those guitar pedals," and, like, Jonny Greenwood has, like, 10 of them in front of him, and he keeps hitting different ones, and I don't understand what's going on. It's really cool, but, but what's the deal with guitar pedals?

So it turns out there are hundreds, hundreds- Mm-hmm ... of guitar pedals. And if you think of it this way your electric guitar without a [00:24:00] guitar pedal creates a clean, kind of raw signal, but when you plug it into a pedal, that signal flows through component like resistors and capacitors and other science-y things, um, That, that sculpt the sound before it reaches the amplifier, right?

So the origin of the term shoegazer comes from the fact that they're always looking at these damn foot pedals because they're constantly switching their foot pedals, and so they're always looking at the ground. And also, one could argue they wanted the music to do the talking, and so they didn't look up much, so.

Or 

Sean: maybe they wanted to make sure their resistors are okay. Can you go through that again? What are the electrical components that have to go 

Rene: through? I ac- I didn't even mention transistors- ... 'cause I didn't wanna overwhelm our listener, but yeah. So that's where- Renee 

Sean: is sweating at this point, listeners.

Yeah Yeah, gonna be 

Rene: like, "Wow, these are a mouthful." Yeah. Uh, no. So that's where shoegazing came from. And that's kinda, you know, Jesus and Mary Chain, famous for that, although they take it one [00:25:00] step further and face the wall instead of the audience, but but that's the origin of shoegazing. So- Why are there so many guitar pedals or foot pedals, whatever you wanna call them?

Oh, by the way, our sound engineer, Joe, he actually has eight pedals- 

... 

Rene: And has owned over 75 at one time or another. So I'm gonna simplify a little bit here, but there are basically four kinds of guitar pedals. There's one called a gain drive pedal. These take the clean signal and kinda overload it, making it louder and more distorted.

So under believe it or not, under gain drive pedals, there's one called distortion, so that makes the sound sound heavier and more aggressive. Smells Like Teen Spirit uses a distortion drive pedal. Fuzz produces a fuzzy, thick, and very dirty sound. Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze, the most famous. There's modulation pedals, which create a swoosh and a swirl sort of [00:26:00] sound.

There's chorus, which makes one guitar sound like a choir of guitars. Think, like, 1980s music. True. Again, Come As You Are, Nirvana, they use that. 

Sean: The chorus bass is a great sound. Yeah. That's the gothic sound. 

Rene: Yeah. I could go on. I'll just kind of quickly s- talk about time-based pedals which delay your notes and create an echo over and over again.

So U2's Where the Streets Have No Name use that quite effectively. And then finally, there's filter utility pedals, and these alter the frequencies of the sound. So- 

Sean: And how does it affect the sine wave, Rene? Can you explain that a little bit more? 

Rene: I don't wanna bore our listeners, John. Is it 

Sean: changing the amplitude or the modulation?

Rene: I'm gonna go with both. Or yes. Okay. So Shields, he uses a lot of the fuzz and reverb pedals. But usually, honestly, Kevin Shields onstage has 30 pedals directly in front of him. And during live [00:27:00] performances, in the closing song of the one we just heard, by the way, you made me realize, they actually perform an interlude of noise which can last for a half hour and often reaches a decibel of 130, whatever that means.

But but apparently, you know 

Sean: It means it's loud. 

Rene: It's pretty loud. Yeah. It means it's pretty loud. 

Sean: Did you check with Joe how many what his amplifier goes to? 

Rene: I did not. 11. I hope it goes to 11. 

Sean: Okay. Yes, maybe 12. 

Rene: Yeah. It's just a one-upper, yeah. Maybe 12. Okay So we're almost done, Loveless folks but I do wanna play one more song, and that song is called What You Want.

Now, this song is not one of the most played songs. It's actually one of the least played songs. Mm. Uh, but it has a faster tempo, and I think that's why because there's a song called When You Sleep, which is the most played song- Mm-hmm ... on 128 million, and that's very slow and flowy. Overall, the album is slow and flowy, [00:28:00] but this song in particular has a faster tempo.

Comes closest to Isn't Anything a song called You're Still In A Dream. And in terms of conventional listening, it's almost a pop song compared to the others, and it speaks to the kind of unconventional listener that this album appeals to, right? So the fact that it's the most conventional song and it's the least listened to speaks to their audience.

Uh, but I do wanna hear it, so let's hear it. 

Sean: Okay.[00:29:00] 

Rene: So honestly, Sean, this is a no-skip album for me, so I, I love that song as much as all the other ones. But that pretty much completes this album. So then they are signed to Island Records, but do you wanna- Okay. 

Sean: Yeah, let's, let's talk about Creation Records- Okay ... a little bit more, 'cause I think you're giving Creation a little bit of short shift- 

Speaker 3: Oh, 

Sean: I don't mean to

in terms of how important Creation Records is- I agree ... was in the whole UK scene. So, you know, when we did our Dinosaur Jr. guitar, we talked about SST Records, and we've talked about [00:30:00] other independent American record labels. But Creation was, with Rough Trade and Glass Records really did start a whole genre in terms of bands that were there.

And you, and you've gone through a lot of the bands that, we're there. But you've left off a couple really important ones. The first Momus albums were on L Records. Oh, 

Speaker 3: shit! Oh. But- Oh, 

Sean: Momus ... Momus, Poison Boyfriend, Tender Pervert, Don't Stop the Night, Hippopotamus, which might have also really affected Creation Records because on Hippopotamus, if you recall, he really dissed Bibs the Michelin Man.

Accused him of doing terrible things. And got the record label and himself in a lot of trouble. Whoa. Michelin did not like Momus making fun of their mascot. Monsters Love- I'm 

Rene: sorry, just for clarity, you're talking about Michelin tires? 

Sean: Michelin tires, yeah. Okay. You know the...

you of course know the name of the Michelin Man? 

Rene: I [00:31:00] did not know the... Is it Bibs? 

Sean: Bibs. 

Rene: Okay. Yeah, yeah. All right. 

Sean: Bibs, yeah. He was... A- at, and at first he was really, really mean. Like, he was a, a cigar-smoking- Oh ... man made out of tires. Okay. He was... The, the friendly Bibs is a recent thing. 

Rene: Leave it to corporations to wreck 

Sean: things.

Advertising. 

Rene: Yeah. 

Sean: And then some of the s- the albums that we had lost track of Momus buy, Monsters Love Boys or Time Lord, but, uh, yeah, he rode that Creation wave.

Rene: Dude, I feel like there's gonna be a Momus episode sometime in our future. 

Sean: I would like to talk about- All right. Yeah, yeah ... um- We can do 

Rene: that.

Sean: Yeah. Max Eider, who was in The Jazz Butcher. 

Rene: Oh, yes, I did see that. I read that and I thought of you. 

Sean: And The Jazz Butcher was w- his first singles. He was on Glass for his, seminal albums, but he started on Creation, was a friend of Alan. But there's uh, Velvet Crush. There's a whole bunch, Shonen Knife.

Um- Oh, Shonen 

Rene: Knife. Yeah, yeah, 

Sean: yeah. Uh, yeah, you know, like, and, and again, these may have been the UK Charts ... pressings. Oh, pressings ... Sugar. 

Rene: Yeah. 

Sean: [00:32:00] But there's a band, let me look. Oh, they've got two brothers in them. 

Rene: That does not narrow it down anymore. 

Sean: You would like them. They're not as good as Blur 

Rene: Oh, Oasis.

Yes, 

Sean: that's right. Their first two albums That's right. Yes And- 

Rene: True ... 

Sean: so Creation- True ... he'd sold, he wasn't bankrupt, he'd sold half of Creation to Sony. Sony, 

Rene: yeah. 

Sean: And then he, you know, the genius, he could see talent from a mile away, picked Oasis, and then he was allowed to do a whole bunch of more interesting things.

So I think between My Bloody Valentine, establishing and the other shoegaze band establishing his genius, he got to then really get paid for finding Oasis. So yeah, Creation Records, and there's a, there's a great movie on Creation Records called Upside Down- Ooh ... that has all of these bands being interviewed.

There's a lot about Primal Screen who- 

Rene: Yeah ... 

Sean: who also kind of, We'll be talking about that ... um, uh, didn't sell as well as [00:33:00] maybe Cre- Creation wanted them to and invested a lot of money. But yeah, it's pretty cool in terms of It's a great movie to watch. Yeah. I highly recommend 

Rene: it. I'd love to watch that movie actually.

That, that sounds really good. And I did gloss over that stuff because I was trying to, not go too deep but I completely appreciate Creation Records, and I do remember reading Jaz Butcher and Oasis. Yeah so good on him. And also the fact they didn't really go bankrupt because he was bought out by Sony.

So, yeah. 

Sean: I think he's he may not have the same villa in France that Robert Smith has, but I think he's- ... he's he's doing okay. He's doing all right. 

Rene: Nice. Okay, but let's go forward to Island Records. So now they're with Island Records, and they're working on their next album, right? Their third album.

But they are having troubles. And there are lots of problems, including rumors of writer's block, and eventually two of the members leave in I think '95, and then a third one leaves in '97, which only leaves [00:34:00] one, right? Yeah. So in 1998, Shields isolated himself, and in his own words, went crazy, quotation marks.

Which of course drew comparisons in the music press to Brian Wilson- Mm-hmm ... of The Beach Boys, who he was a fan of, by the way. Yep. And he actually went and attended Brian Wilson's, uh, Smile tour several times. And of course Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd who I love.

Sean: Or that guy from Over the Airplane.

Rene: Oh, Jeff Mangum. Yeah, they didn't actually. It's funny, it didn't mention that, but it should have. 

Sean: I'm thinking again, this is totally your jam. Jeff Mangum, yeah. He's like- 

Rene: Control, no, don't 

Sean: tell ... seminal records by a guy who withdraws from the, uh- Shit ... the public. Yeah. 

Rene: What's that say about me? 

Sean: Yeah. That you like good music.

Rene: Okay, I like that. Yeah. I'll take that and run. Okay. So what he ends up doing actually, and you just mentioned it, is he becomes a touring member of Primal Scream. He collaborated with other artists too, Sean, that we like, like Yo La [00:35:00] Tengo. 

Sean: And he played on the '97 what's the Dinosaur Jr.- Yep ... album called, right?

Yep. Like he, he- Exactly ... and, uh, the, uh, provided backup vocals, like that's a pretty cool, um, yeah, it's not one of the records, it's the last record before the split. And- Oh ... listeners, listen to our Dinosaur Jr. record- Episode ... and you can learn all about the split. And the '97 record, which was the last one before the hiatus, that was the last one that J did before he said, "I'm putting this thing away."

Yeah. So pretty cool. 

Rene: Yeah, very cool. And then he also did the soundtrack to a movie called Lost in Translation- Mm-hmm ... which, which was a pretty damn good soundtrack, I might add. 

Sean: And if we're going collaborations now in not the '90s, in the 2000s, in the aughts he provided guitar for Patti Smith's poem ode, like opus, the, her long, hour poem to Robert Mapplethorpe.

Rene: Wow, that's very [00:36:00] cool. 

Sean: Yeah. Very cool. It's, and that's on, that's on streaming service. You can listen to it. She reads, it's a, an odyssey, it's a, a type poem b- about Mapplethorpe becoming a sailor. And I have listened to it all. It's a long thing, but- Yeah, yeah ... she, she speaks about it in her, her last book, which was so great.

I mean- Mm ... and it's nice just to hear her voice. 

Rene: Yeah. Nice. Okay. So- He's done all this stuff, and again, we're glossing over. So we have gone from '98 to 2008. And so in 2008, 2009, the band reunites and do a world tour, and then they dedicate some time to that third album finally. And that third album is called, very simply, MBV.

Now that album was finally released in 2013. So we're 2009 to 2013, and they finally get that album out. So th- they seem to have a, kind of a track record- A glacial pace. Yeah. [00:37:00] A glacial pace. A glacial pace. But it does get universal acclaim according to Metacritic. And and then the band went on another world tour.

So on the MBV album, we're gonna listen to a song called Only Tomorrow. It's the most played song on that album, and it very much feels like a, like a great B side of Loveless in the best possible way. So let's give a listen to that.[00:38:00] 

Sean: Okay, so this record and especially the previous one, it just sounds so familiar and comforting and enveloping, right? In terms of the sound. I mean, it's dissonant. It's not easy, but it feels like you're walking into a party where you know everybody and you know- Hmm ... and everything's good, right? Hmm.

Like just, you know- Nice ... listening to those after Coming back to them after a little while, that was the big feeling that I got, about, "Oh, yeah, this is so nice," right? 

Rene: Warm. 

Sean: But I think that song, especially in terms of the the absence of lyrics, the using your voice as an [00:39:00] instrument.

Belinda Butcher, who's is gr- great, but it does remind me, you, you talked about their, who they were influenced by. The Cocteau Twins were almost orchestral and precise in the- their music, right? That- 

Rene: Agreed ... 

Sean: you know, that, that it was so clean. But Elizabeth Guthrie, I think that's her name- I think 

Rene: so

Sean: Her, her vocal stylings was very similar. It, her, she used her voice as an instrument, and it did, it- listening to these records again made me think, "I've gotta listen to more Cocteau Twins. That's fallen out of my- Yeah ... canon and- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... repertoire for a little while." 

Rene: It's funny, Sean, 'cause I know you were a DJ at your college and I was actually a music critic uh, for the newspaper at my college, so I actually reviewed Cocteau Twins' Treasure at the time, and yeah, I still love that album to this day.

But a lot of the new kids and younger kids Heaven or Las Vegas is their favorite album consistently. 

Sean: Yeah, because it's got, again the TikTok or the, the press or something that is- Oh, we're sounding 

Speaker 3: really [00:40:00] old now.

That, you know- Yeah, 

Sean: the kids ... that those songs are, the songs are s- they're so catchy, and the Cocteau Twins were, seriously, they were played on Muzak. Oh. And I'm like, "This is the best thing ever." Right when Stingray first started out- Yeah ... they must have, got copyright to that, and I'm like- 

Rene: Wow

Sean: "This is the best ever. Can we just stay here and have another dessert?" "I don't like dessert. I just wanna listen to that." It's great music. 

Rene: It is great music, absolutely. And it's interesting that you say that because literally what I was gonna say next was Shields intended the vocals to be used like an instrument.

And critics have often described the band's vocals as androgynous, and this is interesting, too, because if you actually look at the shoegaze kinda movement overall, a lot of the bands have female members in them, more than most rock bands in quotes. Mm-hmm. Right? And even if there was a male singer, it, the sound they use echoiness and stuff to make it sound androgynous.

And I have a funny story, actually, [00:41:00] 'cause Chloe and I were in the car, my daughter, she's 25. We're listening to Silversun Pickups Lazy Eye. 

Sean: Mm-hmm. Oh, great song. Yeah. 

Rene: Great song. Female singer 

Sean: I think there's a female and a male in the- 

Rene: Oh, you're good. Dude, you 

Sean: are 

Rene: so good ... band, and 

Sean: they, they take turns.

Damn. But it is hard to figure out, 'cause I've often had the, I think I may have had that conversation in the car myself. 

Rene: Yeah, so the, the, it's a male singer, folks. So you listen to Lazy Eye and you're gonna argue with me, but you Google it. His name's Brian, he's the lead singer, and it is a male singer who sings Lazy Eye.

You- And Chloe was like, she literally had to Google it right on the spot. She could not believe that I was telling the truth. So, another thing about the singing, the style and stuff, and this kind of felt, Sean, like a PR spin to me, but I still the story. So apparently during recording of Isn't Anything and Loveless, Butcher was sometimes purposely woken up from a sleep-

and then would record the vocals, because- 

Sean: If it [00:42:00] took three or four years- Yeah, she must have been sleeping at some point- Yeah. It's like, "Are you sleeping?" ... during that recording. Yeah. 

Rene: And he goes, "Damn, you're not asleep." 

Sean: Kevin could've been up that whole time, but yeah- That's right ... she was sleeping. 

Rene: Yeah.

Yeah. So you see where this is going. Yeah. So it sounds more dreamy and sleepy, right? So I, PR story probably, but good one. Good one. And lyrically, okay, so I have something to say about this. 

Sean: Okay. 

Rene: And then maybe you do too. 

Sean: No, I don't. 

Rene: Okay. All right. 

Sean: I don't know the lyrics at all.

Rene: Yeah, right? Yeah. Okay. So honestly, I read it, I'm like, "Okay, lyrically, come on, give it to me. What's going on?" So they seem fully conflicted, and I don't mean the lyrics are conflicted, I mean the band members are conflicted in terms of the role of lyrics. So Butcher has said the lyrics are often, and I quote, "Plain nonsense."

But Shields is quoted and goes on for some time on how important lyrics are and that they spent more time on the lyrics than the music, is what he actually says. So not sure where to head out on that, [00:43:00] but of note, there are no lyrics on Spotify. So let's just leave it there, 'cause honestly- Yeah

I don't even know what to do with that. 

Sean: It's hard to fit in your voice as a instrument. Maybe that's why it takes so long. Right? I don't know. 

Rene: At least Cocteau Twins didn't really pretend. Like, they barely... and another band, Sigur Rós, they would literally just go, "Oh, no, this is just Icelandic, Islandia."

No, Hopelandia is their, the language that they would use, 'cause they would use their voice as an instrument, and they wouldn't even pretend- Oh ... it was words. 

Sean: No. She uh, the, there's a lot of words in the Cocteau Twins, and they're put together in, not in sentences, but in ways that make you feel what she's trying- Yeah

to come across. 

Rene: You're right. But, 

Sean: but- Yes ... 

Rene: does it make sense? 

Sean: Pearly dewdrops drop?

Feathers? What's after the uh... Yes, they totally make sense. Okay. All right. Oh man, now I really have to- ... listen to the Cocteau Twins. 

Rene: All right. Maybe- Yeah ... we'll do it right after this record. Okay. There are two other songs I wanna flag on this album. [00:44:00] One is called Wonder 2, and it, dude, it literally sounds like a jumbo jet going overhead.

I don't even know how they created that sound, but it th- literally sounds just like that. And then the other one is called Nothing Is one of the least played songs on the album for good reason. It's almost unlistenable but strangely hypnotic. I'm not gonna play it 'cause honestly, I think, I think our listeners should just choose to play it to themselves, and I encourage you to- Mm-hmm

and try and sit through it. It'll be 

Sean: on our playlist? 

Rene: It'll be on our playlist for sure. But it reminds me we're gonna go into film here for a second, but it reminds me of this controversial director. His name's Gaspar Noé, and he actually, in interviews, he actually tries to make people uncomfortable by creating tension.

So especially in his earlier films he's done... His two earlier films are I Stand Alone and the other one's called Irreversible. It's, that's the English translation, Irreversible. But for Irreversible, he fa- purposely found [00:45:00] a sound that has proven to make people physically nauseous. And that's his opening track to his movie.

So during the film's 2002 Cannes Film Festival premiere, around 200 people left, and several needed medical attention for vomiting and fainting. 

Sean: So sound is a weapon. That's pretty cool. 

Rene: Yeah. Sound is a weapon. Pretty cool. And, and the other one, is a little dark, but I Stand Alone, the storyline is building to this horrible moment that you know is coming, which is an incestuous moment, but they're both agreeable incestuous participants.

And what he does in the theater is he does a countdown. He goes He basically implies, you know what's gonna happen next. You have 30 seconds to leave the theater, and he does a fucking countdown. He goes 30, 29, tw- and you stay, and you're like, "Why am I staying? He's told me to leave," and just amazing. So I actually feel like that song, "Nothing Is," is doing that same sort of thing, and [00:46:00] I think that's so cool and powerful.

Okay, let's talk listeners. My Bloody Valentine, 800,000 monthly listeners but Great Britain has approximately the same amount of monthly listeners as all of Canada and the US combined. Hmm. So this is why, we talk about ear shifter, we talk about overlooked and underplayed and, maybe, hey, Great Britain, you guys are just awesome, and you're way ahead of us and all that shit, but over here, not so much.

So that's why we feel, both of us feel that they're overlooked and underplayed. 

Sean: So Rene, I know these guys are an ear shifter band, but what made you wanna talk about them now? 

Rene: Yeah. Well, it's so interesting 'cause my Insta feed started filling up with these with live footage of MBV playing, and everyone's consistent comment was, "It's so loud," or, or they'd say, "I've never been to a louder concert in my life."

But they all meant it with with praise 'cause they were just blown away. It's like, "I can't feel anything." It [00:47:00] was, it was really wild, and they just kept showing up in my feed. And I was like, "Oh, man, those guys." So unfortunately, they did just close up that tour. It was mainly in, uh, Europe. 

Sean: Well- At their glacial pace, we'll have another album by the end of the decade, and maybe we can look forward to them touring in, Coming back to Toronto

in 2030. Yeah. 

Rene: Yeah, fingers crossed. 

Sean: And if you wanna come back sooner, that'd be great. 

Rene: Yeah. Yes, please. The last thing I wanna do, 'cause it's important I wanna do a shout-out to our guy, Alan Cross, 'cause Alan Cross our f- really our favorite music podcast- Mm-hmm ... besides ours. Yep. It's called The Ongoing History of New Music that he hosts, and he did a whole episode on shoegaze.

So I did pull some stuff from there, and also he's helped us in terms of getting this podcast started. He actually answered our questions. A, kind of one of our heroes. At least a- He is a hero ... podcast hero. Yeah. 

Sean: And I loved him when he was on the radio. Me 

Rene: too, man. That's for sure.

Me too. Okay, so do we even need to go into why is this an [00:48:00] earshifter band? 'Cause I think the whole episode was about that. 

Sean: Give me a hint. Give, give, give the listeners who are now, now wanna talk about, "I heard this great earshifter band. This is why they are." 

Rene: Well, they started a whole... single-handedly started a whole genre.

Simple as that. 

Sean: That's pretty good. 

Rene: I think that's as far as we need to go. There's nothing more to say on that one, man. Okay. Okay, so, uh, what are we gonna hear next time, Sean? 

Sean: I wanna play a guy who refers to himself as a bluesologist, but don't get scared, Rene- Yeah ... 'cause I know you love the blues.

Ah. But others refer to

him as the Godfather of Rap. 

Rene: Whoa, that's cool. 

Sean: Uh, a, I wanna remember him on the 15th anniversary of his death, and one of his singles, his early singles, is featured prominently in the movie One Battle After Another, so I think that's good to reminisce. And think about how cool his original band member, Brian Jackson, is teaming up with Mos Def- Hmm

Yasmin [00:49:00] Bey, for a world premiere live celebration of his entire catalog in, all places, Sydney and Melbourne in Australia. 

Rene: Wow. This is... Sorry, this is coming up? 

Sean: This is coming up. 

Rene: Oh, wow, that's cool. 

Sean: Yeah. 

Rene: Very cool. Okay, I look forward to that. 

Sean: So until next time. 

Rene: Until next time. 

Sean: See ya. 

Rene: We hope you enjoyed this episode of Earshifter.

Tune in next time, where we'll cover another band that deserves more. You can find Earshifter on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Friend us or listen to our playlist on Spotify, and visit earshifter.com for more information. A special thanks go to our logo designer, Stuart Thursby, and our intro/outro music by Joe Novak.

You can find him as byebyebadman, one word, on SoundCloud. And a big shout-out to Joe for being our awesome sound engineer/editor. Until next time.