Rene: Welcome to Earshifter. He's Sean Capstick. 

Sean: And he's Rene Rouleau. And Rene, why are we here? 

Rene: Sean, we are here to either further educate fans of said band, in this case might be a band called No Means No, or introduce people to said band, No Means No. And I just wanna kinda like say that, listen, hey listeners, we get it.

Like, this is about music exploration. So if you don't like this band, that's cool too. You don't have to listen to this episode or stick with it just for interest's sake, 

Sean: but- Well, you should stick with it for interest's sake Yeah, 

Rene: all right. Fair enough 

Sean: Yeah. Stick with it, but maybe download the song list- Yeah

On the streaming service- Yes ... or do and still try very hard, Rene. Oh Give our listeners a break- Yes ... that they are on this exploration journey with us. 

Rene: Fair enough. But if you are a No Means No fan, then buckle up, 'cause you're on a little journey with us today. 

Sean: Okay. So Rene, you're always positive, and I appreciate your support on my, our EarShifter journey to bring No Means No to people.

But tell me, what did you think of the music when you heard them? 'Cause you had forgotten them in the mists of time. 

Rene: Yeah, indeed. Uh, wow. So like when I listened to this I was like, "Holy crap, this is completely different." Crazy change-ups. It honestly, my, my knee-jerk, a- and listeners take note, it felt like hardcore punk meets fusion jazz- Mm-hmm

meets Frank Zappa. 

Sean: Hmm, I don't know about the Zappa, but okay, yeah. Then, and I'd throw a little funk in there too. Oh, a 

Rene: little funk as well? Yeah. Yes, yes, I agree. And even some like [00:02:00] metal-esque moments. Yep, mm-hmm. Moments, only moments, but metal-esque moments. 

Sean: Oh, there's some good screaming Yeah, there's some very good screamcore going on.

Yeah. Before there was screamcore, there was No Means No. Yeah. So I'm glad you're being so positive because I think they are difficult-listening music. They are not easy-listening music. They're the opposite of that. But they're important to me. Uh, they've just, as I gave in the hint in our last episode, their songs have just come on streaming service.

So why not celebrate the band and maybe introduce more people or just announce to people who haven't checked to see if No Means No on streaming service that they really are? Now, not all the songs are there because everything's complicated. There's nothing easy with No Means No, but we'll get into it.

So I must have seen them at least a half dozen times over the years. That's amazing. They are a amazing live band. I have most of the records or CDs over time but again, they've fallen out of my [00:03:00] rotation, and I wanna talk about... It was also really nice going down memory lane, listening to all these records that, uh, I had that I hadn't heard for a long time.

So it's a little bit of a pleasure for me to introduce the band as well. So that's why I wanna talk about them. 

Rene: That's why we do this. 

Sean: So let's get into the history, right? So they were influential, right? There's no question their influence is more than their commercial success, and the fact that they came from Victoria, British Columbia.

So for those people who aren't up to speed on their Canadian geography, Victoria is a smallish city of maybe a quarter million people on the island off of the west coast of Canada. It's named after Queen Victoria. It's a sleepy little town on a beautiful island surrounded by nature, and, that's where they moved when they were I think, in their teens, and that's where they started playing [00:04:00] music.

But, you know, from their small beginnings on this far west as you can get they mixed that punk, that post-hardcore, math rock, it's been described, the punk jazz, and they blended that aggression with really, really tight musical discipline and a progressive complexity while still maintaining interest 'cause a lot of that, that progressiveness gets boring.

But they managed to maintain it a super interesting show. 

Rene: Yeah, and I forgot prog rock. I forgot prog rock's thrown in there too, man, 'cause there's a lot of, like, prog rock-ish stuff in there that I'm like, "Wow." It was, it was a wild journey for me. 

Sean: So let's talk about who, you know, where they've been influenced and, and where they've been talked about.

So getting ready for this podcast, I read this super cool, it's an oral history where, yes, there's a narrative. The writer, Jason Lamb, does provide a [00:05:00] narrative in chapters, but the chapters are basically interview quotes from No Means No themselves, from people who have played with them, for people who, you know, super fans, for people, the promoters.

So it was a really interesting way to bone up on the band. It's called From Obscurity to Oblivion. And in there they quote one of my favorite musical histories, Have Not Been the Same: CanRock Residents from 1985 to 1995. This is by Michael Barclay, Ian Jack, and Jason Schneider. And we've talked about some of the bands in that book.

Change of Heart got a full chapter. 

Rene: Nice. 

Sean: No Means No didn't get a full chapter. They were talked about a lot in that book be- being as their influence. But they are quoted by John K. Samson in the book. And- I 

Rene: know who that is. 

Sean: Yes. Uh, astute listeners would know that we've done an [00:06:00] episode on The Weakerthans, John K.

Samson. And he says that they are the best example of Canadian punk, and remember, he was in the Canadian punk band Propagandi, that are literary, philosophical, emotionally articulate, and musically adventurous. 

Rene: I would agree on all counts. 

Sean: And I think that sums it up really well. And I don't think it's an understatement to say they're an influence if all or most of the Canadian bands who grew up in the '90s, 'cause No Means No toured relentlessly, so if you were in a band, you would go see other bands, and No Means No would've been playing in your town, which is Barclay's follow-up to that.

Uh, what i- That's in the '90s. I forcan't re- can't remember what the title's called. I'm in the middle of that book. It's about, the Canadian resurgence from '95 to 2005, and he covers Godspeed You! Black Emperor, it covers The Weakerthans. He covers a lot of these great bands. I'm in the middle of that book right now.

That is ... I think they're great in terms of their [00:07:00] influence, and it's another good reason to talk about them. 

Rene: Agreed. And also the only other thing I wanna say about that is what a great title for a book. What was it? From Obscurity to Oblivion? 

Sean: From Obscurity to Oblivion. Awesome. Yes. It's 

Rene: a great, great summation.

Sean: Yep. It ... And, you know, yeah, they're pretty obscure in V- in Victoria, so I think the band, the answer to the question, what kind of band would you get if you crossed The Residents and The Ramones? Hmm. So obviously The Ramones are big, but do you remember The Residents? 

Rene: 100%, because they were so weird on stage.

Didn't they wear the big eyes and- Yep ... stuff on their heads? Yeah, that's how- Yes ... I remember them. 

Sean: And they never- 

Rene: Revealed themselves ... 

Sean: revealed themselves. Yes. Ah, beat you 

Rene: to it. 

Sean: Yeah. So the whole persona of No Means No, they, they did a couple versions of Moles Are Coming, that whole mole, ... See, again, I had, I had Residents albums.

Oh, I know you did. I, I ... Yeah. I remember 

Rene: you did. 

Sean: Yeah, you did. And you never borrowed them [00:08:00] again. I gave them to you, and then you never borrowed them again. That's funny, that. I- Yeah ... I'll try again. Again. Let me get those, let me get those uh, records for you. 

Rene: Hey, listen, they pushed the boundaries. I appreciated that.

Sean: So they did the Here Come the Moles. I can't remember the name of the song that they covered that, right? But that whole idea of there being a mystery to your band No Means No really embraced that. So who are No Means No? They're two brothers, Rob Wright, who is the older brother, the bassist, lead vocalist for most of the songs, some of the songs, occasional guitarist, but his many personas.

He's known as Mr. Wrong. He wore an angry priest outfit. I don't know if it was him or the guitarist who was in the cow head costume on the f- on the front of Wrong. 

Rene: Nice. 

Sean: It ... But the ... He's wearing the ... When you look at it on Wrong, he's got the priest outfit it looks like, [00:09:00] but then the guitarist wore the cow head sometimes.

And he's also known as Mr. Happy, and in another band that we got to, Robby Hansen. We'll talk about the Hansen brothers in a sec. There's John Wright, who is the drummer, keyboardist, occasional vocalist, and co-songwriter, and he was known as Mr. Wright or Johnny Hansen. And then they started out as a two-piece, so let's, before we get to their guitarists, right?

So in this oral history they talk about their early influences, especially, ... Am I gonna use their names? Let's call him Mr. Wrong. Mr. Wrong, the elder brother. He was into the same music that we were, right? So he liked, The Stranglers and the '80s influence early '80s alternative music.

And his brother was younger his brother liked whatever was on the radio at that time. And it was seeing DOA another [00:10:00] Vancouver-based hardcore punk rock band, right? That, that No Means No and DOA are really intertwined over the years.

Rene: I would add that DOA is a heavily influential band, too, in the hardcore punk scene.

Most definitely. 

Sean: Yep. And but it was later. So they credit DOA as being highly influenced, and there's a little history of that in the book. But it was seeing The Ramones that changed them forever, right? So The Ramones played, I don't know if it was Victoria or Vancouver. They went to see them, and then they said, "That's it.

We're going to give up the cover bands that we're in. We're going to give up the pursuing just musicianship and then become musicians." And so I think that's pretty cool, right? So, they started playing out this punk rock, but they were only a drummer and a bassist at that time. So they were playing non-conventional punk rock.

Rene: The one thing I did notice, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the songs are kinda bass-led or bass-heavy. 

Sean: [00:11:00] Totally, yes. 

Rene: Like, so you already see how they could be a bassist and a drummer. You know what I mean? But, and just fill it out with the rest because some of those bass lines are just so heavy and driving wild.

Sean: And yes, and that's the way they were in concert as well. Yeah, and so that's how they started. They didn't have a guitarist. So the first album, "Mama," is just them on bass and drums, which predated electronic and dub and all of that by, you know, decades, right? And it's funny 'cause towards the end, that was all that, um, Mr.

Wrong, Rob, wanted to listen to. He said, "Guitar rock is dead," even though he was in a band that was soon to, p- playing guitar rock. He wanted to just listen to electronic music. So they started out with that, and they had to really be different because they were playing as a two-piece, right? So the Victoria scene was really small, and they credit that they couldn't have done it in Vancouver.

They couldn't have done it in a larger city [00:12:00] because Victoria was so cooperative and not cliquey. So all the bands played together- Hmm ... when, when they had a, a hall rented, then everybody would come out to see them, as opposed to, in, in a larger city where- They 

Rene: get lost ... 

Sean: they get lost. Yeah.

There's not as much collaboration. Yeah. So the first time I saw them, It was the three-piece, and they always set John's drums, Mr. Wright's drums, at the front so you could see him drumming, right? Like, he would be- Mm, I love that ... the side to the audience. 

Rene: I love when bands do that. 

Sean: And, he's a, a pretty intense drummer.

And then uh, you know, Mr. Wrong, Rob, would be on the other side. Mr. Somebody would be playing guitar in the middle. And then, for the tours later, after it was Ken or Tom on the, the guitar then they had two drums, right? So it was just such- Sorry, 

Rene: playing at the same time, right? 

Sean: Playing at the same time.

Rene: Didn't Manchester Orchestra do the same [00:13:00] thing when we saw them?

Sean: I, I've seen it in- I think so ... other bands with that, and it's pretty powerful. Like- 

Rene: Sorry, not, yeah, not Riot Fest, the first time we saw them in Toronto. I'm pretty sure they had two full drum kits with two full drummers playing at the same time.

It was amazing. 

Sean: It is amazing. Yeah. And es- yeah, and when they can play, it's it's pretty cool, right? So they were some pretty interesting shows. But They also had alter egos, which I think is kind of fun, right? And that's one of the reasons why they got the additional drummer, is because they loved the Ramones.

They couldn't play ... Well, they could, as No Means No, play Ramones covers. But they wanted to play more simpler songs. So they invented, again, another whole alter egos and that's where the Robbie Hansen and, uh, Johnny Hansen were in place, and they were the Hansen Brothers. So you know where the name [00:14:00] Hansen comes from?

Rene: Oh, I, I did read this, but I can't remember. I'm drawing a blank. 

Sean: Okay. So old time hockey. 

Rene: It was a hockey ... That's why I draw a blank. You love hockey. That explains a lot. I love hockey so much. 

Sean: Uh- It's so great ... the the movie about the fictional hockey team, the Chiefs, that had Paul Newman in there- 

Rene: Yeah, that's right

Sean: as an older player coach Slap Shot, and he gets the Hansen Brothers. He recruits the Hansen Brothers to come out and play on the team. And the Hansen Brothers are fighters three brothers. They wear glasses that are taped up because they break them getting into fights. They had a lot of comical devices to the Slap Shot.

So they said, "Okay, we'll be the Hansen Brothers." Rob wore a hockey mask that said "dumb" on the top of it- Amazing ... and played bass. 

Clip: Amazing. 

Sean: And John moved from playing drums to be the, the Joey Ramone lead singer, and they [00:15:00] played straight ahead hockey-themed Ramones songs. And they had four records.

They were all covers. The c- the cover art on the records were all takeoffs of other bands. So the first- Other hardcore 

Rene: bands- 

Sean: Other- ... or punk bands ... punk bands. Yeah. So their first album is them dressed up like the Ramones in the form of the Road to Ruin album. Cartoon, yeah. And that was my first

I can remember buying that Ramones from Peter Dunn's Vinyl Museum. That was the first, 'cause it came out, I remember seeing it on the new music, and I was like, "I'm gonna go buy that Ramones album." And then I got the older ones and the l- later ones. Like, they were pretty good. And so, you know, the other one, songs had a cover with the same, taking off from DOA, their friends, taking off from Black Flag.

I got another Black Flag story later. And then another Ramones cover of their live album, covering the Ramones' It's Alive. So [00:16:00] not taking themselves too seriously. But they did take it s- they took it seriously enough that they, too, got their songs on a PlayStation soundtrack. 

Rene: Oh, that's very cool. 

Sean: So yeah, it, it's you know, they, they were good musicians and they played that.

You've described the music, um- 

Rene: Somewhat to, to my, the best of my ability, yeah ... 

Sean: but let's, let's get into the music. So it's complex. I mean, I feel fortunate enough that I saw them so many times live, and that is, why they are so special to me. But do you remember when we were talking about contrafactums?

Rene: No. 

Sean: We talked about contrafactums on the- When did 

Rene: we talk about contrafactums? 

Sean: On the Dinosaur Jr episode. We did? You told me that it was a mongrel- Oh ... that I was- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

Rene: yeah ... 

Sean: that I was, it, that they did not make do a contrafactum, that I was actually just mishearing the lyrics. [00:17:00] So Joe our sound engineer, actually found me the Dinosaur Jr's cover of Peter Frampton, I Want You to Show Me the Way.

And maybe I gotta give Peter a little bit more credit because the actual lyric is, "I watch you when you're sleeping, and I wanna slap your face." That's 

Rene: the real 

Sean: lyric? That is the real lyric. My 

Rene: God. "

Sean: And I need you to show me the way." So I was totally mis- mishearing that. So it was not a contrafactum that Dinosaur Jr, J Mascis, was doing.

But No Means No are one of my favorite bands to invent contrafactums about the music, and a contrafactum is where you make up lyrics on the same tune, so you purposely change the lyrics to suit your purpose. 

Rene: As, okay. Okay. Got it. Wow, I am getting a real education here. 

Sean: So what are your favorite 

Rene: contrafactums?

Oh, come on, man. Are you kidding me? Jesus Christ. You know that. 

Sean: Let me tell you [00:18:00] some of mine then. All right, you 

Rene: go, buddy. 

Sean: You know, The Replacements, You're My Favorite Thing. All my contra- I used to sing contrafactums to my kids, but now they're to my dog. Uh, You're My Favorite Thing is, "You're my favorite dog, bark nothing," and Ryder really likes that.

Speaking of the kids and The Ramones, did you never sing, "Hey, ho, let's go," to Chloe when you wanted her to get her snowsuit on or come down the stairs? 

Rene: No, I never did do that, but I definitely played her The Ramones as soon as I possibly could. 

Sean: So the, "Hey, ho, let's go" was- Mm-hmm ... our little way of, "Okay, we gotta get moving," and so we'd all, like, put our fists in the air and- That's awesome

what they want, I don't know, but we're all revved up and ready to go, so that was it. 

Rene: That's awesome. 

Sean: And then our favorite, so we would ski in Alberta and go to Calgary. So we had a whole thing. Do you remember the, On the [00:19:00] Road to Ruin, I think was Sedated? 

Rene: Yeah. 

Sean: So we sang that as we were packing to go skiing, but we changed the words to, "20/20, 24 hours to go," and then we'd go Banff, B-Banff, Banff," which is, again, for our non-Canadian friends, a town in Alberta close to Calgary.

Yeah, okay. And then we'd say Banff, I wanna go to Calgary." And then we'd do the, "Get me on the airplane, take me to the ski hill." Yeah. Oh, that's great. "Hurry, hurry, hurry before I go insane." You literally rewrote 

Clip: all the 

Rene: lyrics. That's pretty good. 

Sean: So that was pretty fun. So, uh, let's hear one of the songs that I make up in a contrafactum.

Okay. Let's hear Rags and Bones from the Wrong album. 

Rene: Uh, which fun fact, the title of the song on Spotify is Rag, singular, and Bones, but the song itself is Rags and Bones. Go figure. Is it a typo? I don't know. 

Sean: Do you think Spotify's making a contradict- [00:20:00] contrafactum? 

Rene: Maybe so. All right. Let's give her a listen.

In 

Clip: the belly of the beast[00:21:00] 

Rene: All right, folks. So this is what I mean. Like, come on. It just, if anything, you just have to go, "Wow, what the hell did I just hear?" Like, what the fuck was that? Like, it was prog rock, it was jazz fusion, it was funk, it was punk, it was everything and more. Uh, and then, and then the whole, "Die, die!" Like, oh, just amazing.

Truly not for everybody, but also truly different. 

Sean: Different indeed. And fun, right? Like, yeah, like the lyrics, and we'll get into the lyrics in a moment are dark. He is not think- singing about, you know, peace, love, what's so funny about peace, love, and happiness. Although later he does really get into more positive things, but, these are dark lyrics.

So what does that song mean? [00:22:00] That's a six-minute song. It opens up with, "Jesus is married to the cross. My father was married to my mother. I am married to a cigarette butt lying in the gutter." So that's happy, you know. And then the chorus, other than the belly of the beast, is, "If I could choose to believe or not to believe, I would choose not to believe, but I can't choose."

Rene: Yeah. Is that, like, him being an atheist? Is that, like... Or is it agnostic? Or is he talking about religion at all? 

Sean: I think he is talking about the conflict between belief and disbelief, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, he starts with the Christ figure, so- Right ... I don't think you can say he's not talking about religion.

We're 

Rene: in the zone. 

Sean: We're in the zone. Yes. He's talking about marriage, which is one of the sacraments. But he's saying that he cannot not believe. [00:23:00] He cannot choose. He is a believer. The beast, that's a demon, right? So he's confronting his demons. Like he's got internal struggles. He's gotta seek catharsis, this isolation.

And then, what is left over at the end of your life? What are the things that you can't use that you have to give away? Rags and bones. There were people who collected- Ah ... rags and bones. Like, you know, the old Monty Python sketch, like, "Throw out your dad, rags, bones," right? That was, you used everything else, and then you gave that away because it was useful to somebody else.

So, like that whole circle of life. You know, like these are th- th- this is pretty deep. This is pretty deep. But when you saw them in concert, it was like uplifting fun. That's a, a... You know, the music is very uplifting- Yeah ... when they're like, you know, they're screaming, you know, bad things, but it's fun.

Rene: Yeah. It's full of energy. It's not... The music [00:24:00] itself is not sad. It's actually just Energy filled is the way I'd call it . Like, just energy filled. 

Sean: Yes. And I was gonna mention it later, but maybe I'll talk about it now 'cause I think it's a segue since we're talking about Rags and Bones. So, don't do it now, folks, but there is another podcast on No Means No that I think is worth checking out if you are a fan.

They are called No Means No-Thing, which they hyphen to No Means Nothing. They have, like, 90 episodes. They have interviewed the band. They've interviewed people around the band. But their central premise, other than like ours, friends, although they weren't friends from high school, they were friends that they met as, as far as I can tell, met through No Means No chat fan sites where they were- Oh, that's kinda cute.

Yeah, so they- So they're people from ... One guy's from Victoria. Two- Oh, really? Yeah. Huh. Uh, two guys, [00:25:00] two ... A woman and a man from another, from the States somewhere, West Coast, East Coast, and they have a couple drinks and get together and talk about No Means No. And they're ... No Means No has, like, about, 150 odd songs, right?

They've released a couple dozen albums, lots of EPs. So they're having a, they pit one song against each other in a playoff bracket to get to the number one song. I love you guys, but just Rags and Bones is their best song. You can you know, but keep going on your podcast to get to that conclusion.

But I'll just save the spoiler alert. Yeah, that's their best song. 

Rene: Do you know if they have done that song yet? 

Sean: Uh, I did not- Did not do- Yes ... did not do- 

Rene: It 

Sean: would have to be done because now they're on their second round. Oh, there you go. So they've gone through, they've eliminated half of the No Means No songs, and now they're get to a quarter.

At Zeno's Paradox they will never eliminate all the songs. Anyway, let's talk about their record labels. So they have their own record [00:26:00] label, Wrong Records, Mr. Wrong. But I think, in that whole Andy Kerr after Mama and going to Today Everything Became Nothing, Small Parts Isolated and Destroyed, Wrong, that was Alternative Tentacles.

So they signed to Jello Biafra's record label. 

Rene: Uh, can you explain to my sister who lives in Mississauga, who's like just a, hockey mom, can you explain to her who Jello Biafra is? 

Sean: Sure. But let's go into... So this is finishing, I think, of the five. Do you wanna talk, say there's five?

So in the '80s, you s- were in an influential band, you started a record label, and you became an influencer in the time. You were able to direct the style. So we've already talked about [00:27:00] Epitaph Records, right? Bad Religion and that formed Anti- and is still going to this day. Uh, SST, we talked about Greg Ginn and the Black Flag and that.

So Jello Biafra is, uh, from the band the Dead Kennedys, who I, I remember your sister liking a lot back in high school. And- 

Rene: She would like the name probably. That's the one thing she'd be like, "Oh, my God, they're political. So cool." 

Sean: And so he formed Alternative Tentacles to release the Dead Kennedys and other hardcore bands in California.

Rene: Awesome. 

Sean: Okay, so I think it's interesting just to know where these bands ended up on the record labels and, maybe we'll talk about Discord Records one time, and Fugazi, and Ian MacKaye, who started that record label. I think it's, it's interesting to know where they came from. Most of them, espe- SST, as we talked about, is in disarray.

Alternative [00:28:00] Tentacles is not doing that well. But Effigies and Discord at, to a lesser extent is still maintaining and really important to this day. So one of the reasons why, uh, they've taken so long to, uh, come to streaming is, like Jello Biafra, he's a, he's a great artist, but maybe not the best businessman.

And so getting the masters, figuring all of that out, the difference between Wrong records and being released in Europe 'cause a lot of their big sales were in Europe, so the distribution of Alternative Tentacles, they were a, you know, a West Coast hardcore record label, and they didn't really expand much more than that.

Uh, so, you know, that's one of the reasons why they didn't get to streaming so quickly. 

Rene: See, I thought it was gonna be some sort of punk rock statement that they didn't wanna kinda give in to Spotify and all of its bullshit. 

Sean: I think there's-- They don't [00:29:00] care that much that they... You know, they toured relentlessly for 40 years.

They made their money touring. They made their money off merch. They made their money selling the CDs directly at shows. And- Music changed. The certainly Alternative Tentacles has decreased in influence. Wrong records became more important, but, and people moved on, right? That, you know, and they moved on.

So yeah, towards the end, they, they were making tour EPs that were only available at the shows, so that was a reason to come out. They released some greatest hits. I'll ta- uh, we'll talk about that in a sec. But they, they kinda fizzled out as opposed to went out with any big...

You know, they're brothers. They couldn't hate each other, right? As, as, to quote Rob "I had to see him at Christmas," right? You know? "The only thing we argued was about music," not that [00:30:00] you're a jerk." Uh, so you know, they stayed together for 40 years. That was pretty good, right? So unpacking all of that stuff, they didn't really care, and it was a lot of work.

So now that I think they're, I think they put more effort to it now that they're not relentlessly touring. 

Rene: Yeah, that makes sense. 

Sean: So, but it's still, like, there's two notable songs. I would play off the Mr. Happy, "I Need You," which is, they don't do ballads, but it is more of a slower song, and that's not been released for I don't know why.

So that's not on the streaming. Hmm. Uh, and then "Hunt the She Beast" is not on Sex Mad, and I don't know why that is not there. So there's a few omissions, like Notice Me Not- Yeah ... and those are, probably, for people would say those are classic No Means No songs, and they're not on the streaming, so it's not completely there yet.

Rene: So they're probably still working on it. Also of note, at the time of this record the song lyrics are not on Spotify either. [00:31:00] 

Sean: And the lyrics are worth digging into. So what's their legacy? They are not oblivious. They are not completely gone. They've, they're, they're there, but it's complicated.

Did they self-sabotage, or is the world going to finally catch up to them? You know, I think that's the question. And they retired in 2016, right? So they, they s- it's 10 years ago, but, you know, they were touring. I saw them in the '80s and into the '90s, but they were touring for another 20 years.

And then they had the Hanson brothers. The Hanson brothers were, like reasonably popular. They struck a chord. So they, you know, went from their parents' basement to touring around the world and then back to, uh, Vancouver, British Columbia, Victoria Island, uh, Vancouver Island, right?

And, just in terms of their confounding, public image and, and the way they present themselves. On my streaming service, their picture, their band picture is, uh, them [00:32:00] playing Scrabble with their second guitarist Tom's parents in Tom's family home. 

Rene: Yeah, I saw that image. It's pretty weird. And 

Sean: they just, they're, they just don't care about their image.

Like when they- Just very punk rock ... like c- like their press releases, they, it was such a walk down memory lane 'cause I could remember seeing those press releases you know, from the radio station and from the bands. Like they would dress up in different costumes, right?

And so they had all these No Means No with, with John as a gorilla Andy wearing the cow head, and then Mr. Wrong in his priest uniform. Like, he used to come out in a priest collar and a military hat and and he would walk around getting ready for the show when, we're the opening band.

He'd be walking around in this priest collar, and you'd be like, "He's pretty intense." So, you know, like they, they really, they could have tried harder to make a cohesive image and press releases for their [00:33:00] record-buying public who didn't go see them live, right? Yeah. Like, anybody who saw them live was a fan or was never going to, to buy anything and say, "Don't ever take me there friend, boyfriend, girlfriend, uh, again."

Rene: Polarizing is what you mean. 

Sean: They made up a publicist promoter. His name was W. Buzz Ryan, and he- What 

Rene: a name. 

Sean: He would put out nonsense about the band. Like they released Wrong, their, their, arguably their biggest record. And the press release had records by no means no dating back to the '60s, going through a prog rock phase.

Amazing. And, you know, it wasn't just throw... Like, they were really well thought out references to prog rock, and it was, you know, this publicist, this made up publicist that came out. So they, the self-sabotage was there. 

Rene: That is so great. But I also wanna say, do you recall a certain someone that also wore a Priest [00:34:00] shirt on occasion to clubs?

Sean: Ah, I think so. He was a really good dancer, but he left marks on the floor with his shoes. 

Rene: Occasionally he did. Yeah. That's me, by 

Sean: the way. Those were good times. Yeah. Those were good times. Okay. I wanna play a couple more songs. 

Rene: Yeah, let's do that. 

Sean: O- so do you wanna hear, do you wanna go chronological?

Do we wanna talk about how they, the song be- do you wanna hear the album before or after 

Rene: Rocka? I wanna hear the sex kitten, sex, cats, and Nazis song. 

Sean: Okay. So from Mr. Happy, let's hear Cats, Sex and Nazis. 

Rene: Looks like I got the order wrong, but yeah. Let's hear that one. 

Sean: Okay. 

Clip: Lies can often give you power[00:35:00] 

Take all the pleasures that you seek. May your heart be full and still be bleak. Cold and

Rene: Okay, so couple things on that song. One, the song title is just incredible. Two, it's an eight-minute song, and this is like, [00:36:00] kinda speaks to them, the way they themselves stretch, 'cause they have eight-minute songs, they have nine-minute songs, they have a minute 13 songs. They have... It's all over the place, and and that actually speaks to the kind of how far they can stretch as well.

Last thing I'll say, which is not great, but as you know, I'm not a huge funk lover. This is one of their funkier songs. Mm-hmm. So I'm not a big fan of it, but I am a huge fan of the title. And my question to you is, at one- We didn't get to it in the actual song play clip, but at one point he says something like, "These are the things that make me happy," or something like that.

So is it cats, sex, and Nazis that make him happy or? 

Sean: He's happy because of cats, sex, and Nazis. Oh, so 

Rene: I was right. 

Sean: So I believe, I, I may be wrong I think it's Spike Jones, was there was a skit about what's popular, what should we do to be popular? And they said cats, [00:37:00] sex, and Adolf Hitler was still pretty popular in the UK.

You know, he had a little bit of a cachet. 

Clip: Okay. 

Sean: So you know, they, they would go on about, you know, "Okay, we have to feature cats, and we've gotta, feature buxom women and, people in military uniforms." And that's a lot of British humor. Uh, and so Again, I don't, I do not recall this being a poster, but some of the posters on this oral history are from oblivion.

So they would put that on their poster in the '80s "Cats, sex, and Nazis. Come see No Means No." So it had been an idea that had been awesome going around, and unfortunately, in this day and age, what's on the internet, Rene? Cats. Certainly, the internet's used for bucks of women and sex, and unfortunately, the internet's used by a lot of, uh, right-wing, um, uh, people.

Oh, whoa. So- That 

Rene: got dark 

Sean: fast ... I don't think it's that- Damn. I think this [00:38:00] is a universal truth. 

Rene: Eek. Okay. 

Sean: And yeah, might as well just, still be Mr. Happy. You don't wanna be Mr. Angry, Mr.- No. No, no. You don't wanna be Mr. Wrong- No ... and just an angry priest and be, so that was his lighter side, Rene.

Rene: Okay. All right. 

Sean: That was when Andy left. That was when they were a two-piece. So that whole album was Rob on guitar, and, uh, so maybe it was a little lower funky, you know, like the brilliant distorted guitar of the album that I wanna play next. Uh, it wasn't there, but it was a, a difficult time.

So they released a, after this, this was a major record, but they released some compendiums that was called One Down, Two To Go. That was a compendium. A compendium called Mr. Right, where John dressed up in white and a, and had a Cupid's bow, with Mr. Wrong dressed up in black. That's, again, streaming doesn't have everything.

I'm sure it's on on YouTube. But they released [00:39:00] a cover of The Kinks' sentence to Victoria, right? Saying how terrible it was to grow up in Victoria, which is tongue in cheek 'cause they do love it. So, uh, you know, that's the that, that's their, their- they've got a funny sense of humor.

Okay. So let's, let's play the album then before Wrong, and this was the first tour that I saw. So let's play The Day Everything Became Nothing. All right. Let's play 

Clip: it.

A committee to discuss the problem Talk about things like you should be[00:40:00] 

Rene: Okay, so that song, like honestly we do not do it justice 'cause there's so much in there. You could hear, like many kinda change-ups, uh, in that song, and then there is one lyric that we also didn't hear, which was, "There are no miracles at 7-11." Yes, that's right. Which is one of my faves. 

Sean: Okay. We can't play the whole song.

Uh, I wish we could, yes. But the reason I picked that little bit is because of the talked about things like assured [00:41:00] mutual destruction and emotional responsibility, and then he says he couldn't remember his name, so he called himself Bob. So they have uh, I don't know, a half dozen songs about Bob.

Dead Bob. Dead Bob is the again, one of their major merch items of, um, a guy hanging himself with a big smile and, and that one would say, "You kill me." So- I want that shirt. It's, well, it's on the internet now, and they- Okay ... you, you can, the internet's- All right ... a wonderful thing. So our good friend Kerry Bach.

I have to give a shout-out to Kerry because Kerry loved No Means No almost as much as he loved Change of Heart, and, w- he was one of the people that we saw the band a lot with. And my sons like No Means No. They, would... Kerry and I would play them in the car, and they would listen to them, and they would be like, like bopping their tiny heads and not saying, "Turn this off!

You're destroying our brains." Bob, [00:42:00] he was discussing, having a meaningful discussion with, you know- Ben might have been eight, five. Evan was, like, 11, 13. They weren't difficult teenagers yet. They were, they would, you know, we, we would have long conversations driving up to the cottage.

Kerry announced that his wife was gonna be pregnant is pregnant, he's gonna have a kid, and he had a meaningful conversation with what should he call his son. And both boys said, "Bob." And I was like, "Well, it'd be weird being a Bob, but you know, your son'll get used to it," and we were laughing, and Bob Bach, it's got a real good name to it, don't you think?

Big 

Rene: alliteration. 

Sean: So Ben still thinks Kerry made a mistake, but Caleb, if you're listening, I'm glad you're not a Bob. Maybe you'd be used to it by now, but Caleb's a pretty good name. Okay, so where else can we go back to in terms of their self-sabotage and, the [00:43:00] fact that they didn't take themselves seriously?

And, they had tremendous success in, in touring. They played to 60,000 people at the Roskilde Festival in Denmark in 1994. 

Rene: As the headliner or as a festival? 

Sean: As the headliner. Wow. They were the headliner on Friday night. 

Rene: Wow, okay. 

Sean: Now, they did it because Sepultura was supposed to be the headliner, and Sepultura had to go to a Portuguese death metal concert instead.

They got their dates mixed up, so Sepultura played on the set, on the, their stage, and No Means No played on that. So, they've had, like, tremendous success. And Sepultura was one of the bands that was on the 10th anniversary Alternative Tentacles record, Virus 100. So every, if you know your Alternative Tentacles uh, record collection, every record was named Virus with a number, and [00:44:00] that was the chronological sequence of the records that came out.

So Virus 100 was coincided with their 10th anniversary, and it was a cover version of Dead Kennedys songs. And so this would've been, I don't know, like, again, the, the start of the '90s, right? Middle, mid-'90s, you know, like, grunge was happening. Dead Kennedys were still, like, talked about. Faith No More was on that album, Alice Donut, an, an Alternative Tentacles record, and, so big promotion.

No Means No could've gotten a lot of press from this 10th anniversary. So what did they decide to do on that record? An acapella version of one of the Dead Kennedys songs. So no music. They layered the singing, but then they also played each of their instruments acapella, so with their voices or hitting their own bodies with the-

Songs. [00:45:00] So it's actually a really, really good song, but not something that you're gonna hum along to and think, "I'm buying this 10th anniversary record, and I wanna check out all of their other acapella songs." So let's hear that one. 

Rene: All right. Let's hear it. And it- sorry, the song title is called?

Sean: Forward to Death. Forward to Death. Uh, another uplifting song. This was w- what Jello wrote. 

Rene: Okay. Let's hear it

Sean: So they released an [00:46:00] album with Jello Biafra. They were friends with Jello Biafra, right? That's why they went to Alternative Tentacles, and Jello Biafra, the apocryphal story was Jello was standing watching the first time he saw No Means No with a guy from Mordam Records, which was a distribution company, and they looked at each other and said, "Who's going to sign them?"

You know, they, they really did... they were respectful for the Dead Kennedys. So to do a acapella version of it is just so No Means No. Another, you know, again, they weren't hardcore, but they toured with DOA, a hardcore band, you know, like so. And they didn't have anything against Henry Rollins.

But one of their T-shirts, you know how Henry has a big back piece? He was tattooed everywhere, right? Yeah. Including his band logo and things like that. Yeah, yeah. But on his back, there's a big back piece, and on top of it it says, "Search and destroy." [00:47:00] They have a T-shirt in the style of Henry Rollins that says, "Stay home.

Read a book." 

Rene: That's awesome. 

Sean: They're just, their sense of humor is very good. We could do, you know, I don't think we could do a whole, but the sense of humor on the Hanson Brothers albums, I'd like to play some Hanson Brothers songs. Like, they were, they do the hockey song, the Stompin' Tom Connors song, but then they wrote, read other songs like He Looked a Lot Like Tiger Williams, which, you know, they, they had a quixotic version of getting Tiger Williams into the Hockey Hall of Fame, and then they realized, 'cause they, he's in some of the Hanson Brothers videos, then, Tiger Williams is not a very good man.

But, you know, so- Yeah ... they w- they were a different, you know, like, they did their own thing,

Rene: tiger Williams is a hockey player, by the way, folks, for those that don't know. I believe he played for the Leafs at one time. 

Sean: He played for the Leafs, he played for the Canucks. Yeah. Yes. He- Okay ... was thank you, Rene, for the people who [00:48:00] maybe don't get the '70s hockey cultural references.

Rene: Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Thanks. That's what I'm talking about. All right. 

Sean: So listen to the song Tiger Williams, and it'll all make sense. Okay, so why are they your gear shifter band, Rene? 

Rene: Oh, Sean, I am fully on board here even if, and no means no, fans. If you're listening, please don't hate me. But even if I don't listen to this band on my own just for fun and chits and giggles, I respect this band immensely.

I, I think, I think they are truly groundbreaking. Even to this day, I think they run circles around a lot of bands in terms of just crazy change-ups, crazy frenetic energy in most of their songs, and then lyrically, to your point, what is a great sense of humor, and also some challenging, deep shit.

Sean: Yes, very deep shit. The Worldhood of the World record was gonna be called Nihilis- Nihilism for Dummies- ... and then they realized they'd be sued. Uh- 

Rene: That's awesome. [00:49:00] That is awesome 

Sean: And they were influential. You know, we could go on a long list of people who were influential. 

Rene: Oh, can we talk about one of them in particular?

Sure. 'Cause this guy just keeps popping up in our podcast. But Dave Grohl literally listed a song called It's Catching Up. He listed it as his top three hardcore songs of all time. Dave Grohl was in a, a hardcore band called Scream, and Scream actually opened, I think opened for No Means No, or vice versa, and that's how he kinda learned about No Means No.

But- I'm sure- ... Dave Grohl to this day swears by them ... 

Sean: I'm sure he opened for No Means No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe so. '

Rene: Cause, '

Sean: cause they were touring. They, they, they didn't support. They said, "We're headliners." And not to their detriment, right? That they could have been out with maybe the Foo Fighters would've taken them on as...

I think Green Day opened up for them many, many times. 

Rene: Yeah, and, and back to the self-sabotage sort of, uh, theme as well, but purposeful self-sabotage really. Especially with 

Sean: Green Day, 

Rene: [00:50:00] yes. Yeah. But yeah. So Dave, he said many things, but that was one of his things, but he, No Means No was just a huge influence.

Sean: And It's Catching Up is on Wrong. And I gotta, okay, I gotta tell one more story. There's a Live and Cuddly album, and I- 

Rene: Amazing album title. My God, so good. 

Sean: And it's, that's a good entry point. Again, self-sabotage. On the back of Live and Cuddly, uh, Buzz Ryan writes something about the four elements of No Means No, and the drummer that's pictured on the back of the record cover isn't John.

It's another guy, a different drummer from a different band. So again, there's so many things we could go on. Maybe we could have a 90-episode podcast like our friends over at No Means Nothing. Nothing. Okay, so why do I think they're a uh, ear shifter band? They classify themselves as a punk rock band because of the music, but they are punk rock in our definition in that they do [00:51:00] whatever they want, and their songs are a ride and, they're difficult, but then you wanna get on them again.

Their live show was amazing, and, Mr. Wrong writes like someone trying to tell the truth about a book you haven't read. 

And he does it without, pulling any punches, without looking away, and you're like, "I don't wanna hear that." Uh, but then you're like, "Okay, yeah, you know, that's the truth."

So- They don't come looking for you. They've never sought out fame. They don't follow any strategy. But I hope that somebody listening to the episode is ready to listen to No Means No, and that this does that for somebody out there. 

Rene: And me too, and that's what our podcast is all about, is that music exploration.

Maybe you've accidentally stumbled into this one, and maybe you're like, "Shit, this kinda grabs me." And hopefully you'll dig deep and you can listen to our songs playlist on Spotify or Apple Music as well. Those are cherry-picked by Sean himself. And and [00:52:00] yeah. Like, thanks for kind of introducing this band truly to me as well.

Yeah. 

Sean: So I'll do the popularity statistics. Usually that's Rene's job. But they only have 20,000 listeners. Um- But 

Rene: why, Sean? 

Sean: Because they're brand new. So let's- Let's get that up. Yeah. The Hanson brothers, we'll give them, they only have 2,000 listeners, but they only have one, and it's not their best album on the streaming service, so- And not 

Rene: to be confused with the Hanson brothers.

Be-bop. Yes. No Be-bop. 

Sean: The, the, yeah 

Rene: No, no, no, no, no 

Sean: Yeah, no, no. It's the- Not that 

Rene: one 

Sean: Yeah. It's the make sure you guys don't make that mistake. So what are they doing now? The band is no more. Tom is continuing to perform, right? He never retired. He quit the band as opposed to the band retiring.

Rob hasn't played the bass in, since he's done that. He's raising his family and out there. And John, Mr. Wright, is touring with a band called Dead Bob, [00:53:00] and they're out touring right now. They're- Amazing ... crossing Canada right now. And so, uh- Do 

Rene: they play No Means No songs or no? 

Sean: They play, they'll play a couple No Means So- No songs, but he's writing new punkish songs and, you can stream those Dead Bob songs as well.

Okay. So they continue. 

Rene: Very cool. 

Sean: Okay, so what do we have next, Rene? 

Rene: Uh, I'm gonna give the easiest clue to date. We are going to listen to an Irish band, and they are sometimes referred to as the godparents of shoegaze. So that's the easiest clue we've ever given in, I think, our 20 episodes. There you have it, and we'll listen to them next.

Sean: Okay, so get ready for the Irish Rovers. 

Rene: Nice one. 

Sean: Till next time. 

Rene: Until next time, people. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Earshifter. Tune in next time where we'll cover another band that deserves more. You can find Earshifter on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Friend us or [00:54:00] listen to our playlists on Spotify, and visit earshifter.com for more information.

Special thanks go to our logo designer, Stuart Thursby, and our intro/outro music by Joe Novak. You can find him as byebyebadman, one word, on SoundCloud. And a big shout-out to Joe for being our awesome sound engineer/editor. Until next time